In Conversation with Sadanand Dhume

Author, My Friend, The Fanatic

Can a non-fanatic be friends with a fanatic?

Yes, I think so. The territory of friendship can be marked in many interesting, different ways. What happened with my friend Herry and me was that even though we had profound political disagreements, we had no problem accepting that we'd agree to disagree politically but so much of our friendship was based on shared experiences, shared travels, shared curiosity, banter, the journalistic ability to display what I call plasticity of character - the ability to get along with people because that's partly the disposition which you cultivate as a journalist. So yes, maybe in the long run you can't be the closest and firmest of friends over time, but it is not difficult in my opinion to strike up a friendship.

If you were to analyse Indonesia, is there a cultural shift taking place from the time you wrote this book and since the time you've been travelling?

I think there's a profound cultural shift taking place. What's happening in Indonesia, in a nutshell, is that an old, tolerant civilisation deeply influenced by Buddhism and Hinduism is giving way to a new, strident, intolerant civilisation deeply influenced by some of the new, hard line strains of Islam coming out of the Middle East. So, Indonesia is going from being one kind of country which, even though it was religiously Muslim, was culturally close to Thailand to becoming a country that is culturally drifting in the direction of the Middle East. That doesn't mean Indonesia has become a Middle Eastern country - that might take decades or even centuries - but the trend lines that Indonesia is experiencing are extremely worrying.

Do you think that Indonesia which - as you say - is going through a period of transformation can ever produce a figure like Abdurrahman Wahid again -  a liberal one as you've portrayed him in the book

Good question. I'd say Indonesian politics can throw up figures who are tolerant but not in the same way as Wahid. What sets Wahid apart is that he's not just a public figure, but a religious figure who is deeply tolerant and stands for secular, liberal values. There may be people who come up and stand for secular, liberal values such as former President Megawati (Sukarnoputri) but the odds of that kind of person coming up from the milieu of pious Islam.

Let's take this hypothetically; if such a person were to come up in Indonesian politics would he/she be able to survive politically in this transforming society?

It depends on what's going on now and whether its cyclical or permanent. If what you're saying is cyclical and the pendulum is swinging from tolerance to intolerance and swings back to tolerance, then he/she will not only survive but also thrive. If on the other hand what you're seeing is a permanent transformation from one kind of thinking to another kind which I fear is what is happening because the old synthetics of Islam - kids reading the Mahabharata in the villages - is dying. I think it becomes much more difficult to be tolerant in the way that so many Indonesian leaders have been tolerant. That becomes harder because the space for that (tolerance) becomes smaller.

You traveled extensively through Indonesia and met a diverse set of people. How did this affect you as a person? Did your views on religion, society, politics etc. alter in any way?

What it did was it gave me a deeper understanding of the Muslim world. The kind of understanding you get spending time with people, listening to them carefully, talking to them, allowing them to explain themselves in their own words rather than trying to force-feed their views into your own pre-conceived notions is a tremendous education. I feel that I have much better handle on not just Islamic fundamentalism but on how people who are driven by these extreme messianic ideas think and behave.

Since you're book is a travel narrative, how did you go about writing it? Did you take notes as you traveled or did you just dive into writing the book as soon as you finished traveling?

I'm a very detailed and compulsive note-taker when I'm reporting so I filled up dozens of notebooks and they're filled with details- sights, sounds, smells, observations and my reflections on those observations. And from that large mass of notes, I culled out what is now My Friend, The Fanatic.

And while culling out this book, did you ever feel that some portions got left out which could've made its way into the book?

One thing would've been of interest to an Indian audience which is that I made a brief trip to the Dieng plateau in Java which is home to the oldest Hindu temple in Java; about a 1000 years old and it was a very evocative scene and was a very meaningful visit, because what I've shown over there was the actual slow-motion death of that old spiritual Javanese culture. It didn't make it but I've repackaged it and its coming out in this prestigious New York literary journal called Guernica. So it's lived to see another form.

Lastly, what are you working on next? What is the the subject of your second book?

To try and understand how globalisation has altered ordinary lives. What I'm looking for are people who's lives have been made extraordinary or have been turned upside down or changed in ways their own families would find difficult to recognise because of the forces unleashed by globalisation and liberalisation. The story I'm trying to tell is the broader story about India but the people whose eyes I want to tell it through are all based in Delhi and its surrounding areas.

A version of this interview can also be read here